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On Tibet  

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1. 这段时间乱忙，昨晚在公交车上看到新闻联播才知道西藏出了暴乱。只是希望平民老百姓能少遭些殃，不论是汉族还是藏族。

   梁峰

   15 Mar 08 at 11:37 pm
2. 另外，这篇写得很不错，赞！

   梁峰

   15 Mar 08 at 11:38 pm
3. […] read more | digg story 豪杰 @ 10:27:52(+0000) [filed under Digg […]

   Two Dimensions on Tibet « This too was Dugg by …

   18 Mar 08 at 6:31 am
4. The issue of Quebec and independence is not a fair comparison. The Canadian government has given the people of Quebec a chance to separate twice. Both times, the people voted to remain part of Canada.

   As for the question: “How is Tibet independence related to the Olympics?”
   Simply put, it isn’t. The Olympics is an excellent platform to voice an opinion because of its international status. It is like how the 1976, 1980 and 1984 Olympics were used to bring up a hot issue. So it’s not like this is the first time the Olympics is being used this way.

   Mark

   18 Mar 08 at 3:34 pm
5. As per Quebec, I agree that ppl in Quebec is using independence as a tool to negotiate with the government.

   I agree with you on the Olympic part.

   亂童

   18 Mar 08 at 3:46 pm
6. “Dalai Lama and his followers used to be the aristocratic in Tibet. The communist took everything they had, their land, their privilege, their slavery system and their sovereign.”

   Well, I really don’t know much about tibet. But just by my distinction, it can’t be right when ordinary people got shot during demonstrations. Never and Nowhere in the world. Of course if innocent people are in danger it might happen, but then the number of killed people show something else.
   And sorry, the western news do not always tell the truth, but a goverment which is trying to get rid of any witnesses, which is shutting down communication networks in such a moment is the last instance i would trust a word.

   Because of that I still can’t really understand why independent chinese people still follow their argumentation. Where is the point of disinforming the own people in such a degree?

   Further, there is no communism in china. It’s an quite advanced dictatorial military regime, nothing else. But as you said, it doesn’t seem the chinese didn’t bring anything good by joining it to china. So then, what is it supposed to be for? If the Tibetans even give their live to get back their aristocratic leader to live in slavery again why not letting them? Because of the communistic idea, which people once had? I think chinese people already suffer enogh under it, no need to expand that.
   Why not trying to have a international discussion or at least between tibetan and chinese? This could have stopped the killing probably on the second day already.
   And don’t worry about the Olympics. Money is always stronger, even Hitler was able to host them.

   Free China

   _p

   19 Mar 08 at 8:09 am
7. As you can read in Wikipedia, during the 1959’s uprise, ordinary Tibetan supports the Chinese government since they will get the land if the government wins. The government has no reason to kill those ppl and I can’t find any accusation of them doing so during the uprise. The Tibetan population, however, dropped during those years, which coincidence with the population drop all over China due to hunger, which was miscalled as “three-year natural disaster” by the Chinese government.

   The Tibetan involved in the uprise is 2.5% of the total population of Tibet in 1959, which is confirmed by both sides.

   I totally agree with you on the attitude towards the media in regard to the Chinese government. It should let press into Tibet. As far as I know, it does not ban press at ordinary time. There is a new documentary “One Year in Tibet” made by BBC showing on TV in UK right now. They actually interviewed in Tibet for the whole year. I personally think the documentery is pretty mutual and if you want to know about Tibet in an easy way, it’s probably one option.

   In any event, even if China should be blamed for not opening Tibet to media periodically, It doesn’t validate the media’s bias report. You can’t say that “since I can’t see, I will just use what I guess as a matter of fact”. It’s not what a reliable media should do. The media is messed up. No matter in the east or the west. They are just tools for propaganda. It’s a matter of fact and I don’t want to make more comments on this.

   On the talking part. The government is not doing a good job either. I see this as a distrust between the two sides. They seriously should have done something to avoid things like this to happen.

   China is not free in a western way but I think it’s getting much better through these years.

   Thanks so much for the comment!

   亂童

   19 Mar 08 at 3:24 pm
8. “Well, I really don’t know much about tibet. But just by my distinction, it can’t be right when ordinary people got shot during demonstrations. Never and Nowhere in the world.”

   Well, I really don’t know much about demostration stuff. But just by my distinction, it can be definitely RIGHT that any one got shot when this guy is killing people or balefully attack police. Since I am not sure if you ever hear about news that: In America it’s common and reasonable that some one got shot when American police saying “freezing” and these guys still move or attack American police. Before you comment anything about “demonstrations”, I am sorry I have to break, It is not demonstration.. alright? demonstration will not kill citizens. will not damage shops and stores. So please don’t say “demonstration”.

   “in such a moment is the last instance i would trust a word.” Alright, you don’t want the truth, you only want to hear what other medias say…independent smart mind don’t do this..

   “Because of that I still can’t really understand why independent chinese people still follow their argumentation. Where is the point of disinforming the own people in such a degree?”
   You don’t know about situation in China..Actually, I have to write a BOOK to explain to you, why Chiese government did this, why did that.since history and social issue is indeed professional and complicated..instead, I suggest you spend more time to read books, talk to smarter people than you, like history or social professors, and ,you know, please improve your mind, collect knowledge, not naively hear media voice…

   “If the Tibetans even give their live to get back their aristocratic leader to live in slavery again why not letting them? ”
   What you know about tibetans? you talk to tibetan people ever? or went to there ever? dude..minority can not represent all tibetans.. most of tibetans don’t want independence. why you said tibetans want to, how many tibetan friends you have? Let you know, I have some tibetan friends, since I really curious about tibet issue, asked them and they told me they really don’t want independence, and as fas as they know, most of tibetans don’t too.. once again, minority is not ALL. “live in slavery again why not letting them?” dude, how old are you? naive…

   “Because of the communistic idea, which people once had? I think chinese people already suffer enogh under it, no need to expand that.”
   Actually, current chinese don’t care about communistic idea much..That’s historical issue, westen never change the way to judge us. That’s not good, since this information is not updated.
   We don’t care about communistic idea much,
   what we care about is:to improve our country to make people live a better life, never be bullied by other country.
   and what we also care about is: our government really did a good job, all of diverse people have a much higher level life; and we get more and more human rights than before;
   what we care about is: we not only feed 1.3 billion people helping entire world to settle the biggest poor population’s eating and wearing problem and also shoulder global economics weighty burden.
   what we care about is: although our country grow up, we never act as a boss like some super country invading other countries with fake democracy. we act like a responsible giant country, contribute to and effect the entire world.
   what we care about is: we lead a new peace-theme, in the recent 100 years, our military never send even single soldier to INVADE any other country..

   Yes, it’s true there are lots of problems in China. Our democratic progress need to speed up, our society face bigger gap between rich and poor, our country still suffer tough division contradiction, our natural environment needs attention. That’s all true. But, we only have 30 years from reform and opening up.. We used to begin from a unbearably messy predicament with 1.3 billion population. Everything needs time. Rome is not one-day job. Our democracy is on the way, we expect it, very soon.

   iceless

   19 Mar 08 at 8:36 pm
9. “The issue of Quebec and independence is not a fair comparison. The Canadian government has given the people of Quebec a chance to separate twice. Both times, the people voted to remain part of Canada.”

   Hey, Mark, I agree with you on this point. But still I have to say democracy is not always the best choice. sometimes the better choice is better peaceful life with first priority.

   Palestinians and the Israelis lived a happy life in an ancient land there, it ends when border was drawn.
   countries in Africa , it is since the colonizers randomly plot out borders on the map, leading to the endless disputes. They live well in those lands for thousands of years, it is because the “concept” of the border and man-made, makes no peace day.

   tibet and taiwan is always part of China, if separated, disputes will not end..

   iceless

   19 Mar 08 at 8:55 pm
10. 亂童, thanks for ur rich answer. I will watch the documentary for sure….

    @iceless, how come you are so aggressive? Somehow your behaviour reminds me of something. But i can’t recall it.

    you want to blame me for refering to western media? where do you take your informations from then? As far as I can see you are quoting exclusively from CCTV reports.
    And if I refer to western media, I am not talking about CNN or BBC, rather I prefer to hear about sources which are not involved in the issue itself.
    But I agree that still it’s a problem to talk about a situation of which no clear informations are provided.

    “In America it’s common and reasonable that some one got shot when American police saying “freezing” and these guys still move or attack American police.”

    No, but i can imagine… especially in US. If the police officers life is endangered I may understand. But even if it comes to an extreme, there is still a difference between shooting someones leg and someones head, if you know what i mean. So did you lately see any “demonstrations” in US where people got shot?
    I think the last times that happens where when the black people when they stood up against slavery. So was it ok to shoot them then?

    Of course violence in demonstrations is an issue, but you know, just go to berlin on first of may. Every year, people crowd together and throw stones and bottles at police officers, they burn cars and destroy shops. Never anybody got shot.
    Even worse the riots in France, did people get shot by police during these riots?! Strange western people, huh?

    If it comes to the innocent people which migt have got killed by “demonstrants” it becomes complicated.
    Thats really different and this would quite change the situation. But quite difficult to prove or disprove this point.
    For police and army there are ways to fight against the mob, even without shooting them.
    And sorry, between burning a shop and taking someones life is a huge difference.
    I am aware, that western media loves to pick on china and often they may leave out some important facts and thereby distorting the news. But the more reporters there, the bigger the hope to find something about the truth. So why China sent them all out. It makes it so much more worse, and nobody in the world will anymore trust what the officials say, especially because of that. Everybody will argument they have something to hide so they lie.
    One of the last foreign reporters who left yesterday said that he’s really not sure about the situation, but the impression he got, was that eventually most of the people which died were chinese not tibetans. And if so, it would be really different and also much better for chinas reputation. But now, even if Chinese media would tell the truth, nobody will believe them - except you maybe.
    See, it seemed to be quite sure that around 80 people died, the western media suggest most of them most be demonstrants and at the end western people will turn it to “80 demonstrants got killed” Chinese media says 13 people got killed.
    Don’t you see the problem? However, but we are just arguing about eventualities.
    Nowadays I really think, the main reason for chinas bad reputation is not about bad things they are doing at first instance, it’s more about what they trying to do to prevent a bad reputation.

    Regarding to your Tibetan friends, which have the opinion Tibet should be under Chinese control. Just send me there contacts, so I’ll interview them and publish it to all the stupid western people who still believe the majority of Tibetans want to be independent.

    “You don’t know about situation in China.”
    Sad but true. But for me it would be still more convincing, if you would come up with some arguments which are not quoted from chinese officials.

    Well and in a way I may understand some steps of Chinese Government. It’s not possible to bring up a communism system without isolating the country from the other capitalists countries. And at the end many of the bad actions were influenced by a good idea.
    Even though this could lead to the same discussion about how far and how bad to go with actions to achieve something “good”. This applies in the same way to the rioting Tibetans as towards Chinese Government.

    “Our democracy is on the way, we expect it, very soon.”
    Where does this come from? I heard it so often from Chinese people.

    To me the “opening” of china seems more like opening it for capitalism and exploitation by western countries, but where did it get more democratic?

    Even you could predict your president 5 years in advance. Or was the confirmation of Wen Jiabao suprising anybody?
    The Great Chinese Firewall is working better nowadays than ever before. You can’t even go to the Olympic Games record some videos with your mobile and upload them on youtube. You can’t claim loudly in China, if you think the Goverment is doing something wrong or did something wrong. So, please, next time just give me some arguments, rather than refering to my age.

    “Actually, current chinese don’t care about communistic idea much..That’s historical issue, westen never change the way to judge us. That’s not good, since this information is not updated.
    We don’t care about communistic idea much,
    what we care about is:to improve our country to make people live a better life, never be bullied by other country.”
    I know, when I said it I tried to refer to the happenings during cultural revolution and in a way also to Tiananmen in 1989. But tell me, what are the good reasons nowadays to suppress critics and information within the society?
    And by the way, i don’t think western countries goverments are better, just because they call themself “democratic”. I think in a way, what England did e.g. in Hong Kong is quite similar to what China was doing in Tibet (before the riots), even though for different reasons, but it makes none of them better.
    Wherever cultural society dies because of a more dominating one, it makes me sad. And it happens thousand times and Europe has definitely the most on its list and even more ironic, China was preserving Tibets independance for a long time against other forces. But right now China itself is supressing the Tibetan culture and that’s why I talk about it.

    I really love China, and it makes me sad that I always hear the same stupid crap from my friends back home, that china is such a bad country doing this and that. And again and again I have to argue with them, to tell them that it’s a government issue and how great this country is. But the more it strikes me, when people like you still try to tell me, the goverment is doing the right thing.

    _p

    20 Mar 08 at 2:58 am
11. p. You are welcome.

    I personally don’t think China is suppressing the Tibetan culture. From what I felt and what I’ve witnessed in Tibet, ordinary Tibetan ppl still lives an ordinary life and the monetaries are very well preserved. As I said in the article, the real problem is the respect of Dalai Lama. The Tibetan are very religious people. The relationship between China and Dalai is a very serious problem. It’s also true that more educated Han people are taking their jobs away. I still can’t think of a good way to solve this since people are remote. Also, I doubt if massive tourism in Tibet is a good thing or a bad thing. I’ll be very very sad if Tibet is not what it’s like in a few years because of intensive tourism.

    As per the democracy part. I might want to talk about it in a separate topic. It’s a long story and to sum up: China is not doing well but it has no other choice based on China’s status. The west always want to change China in a way neither the government nor the ordinary civilians feel happy to accept. Democracy is good, it’s no doubt about it. However, if everything is being connected to democracy, it won’t help to promote it. I can frequently see words like: “communist product made in China”, “communist flag (Chinese National flag)”, “Boycott Olympics since they don’t have democracy” on various occasions. Suppose you were an ordinary Chinese, what would you think.

    Your comment is welcome and I can’t agree with you more on many points. Keep posting and lets change more views.

    亂童

    20 Mar 08 at 4:37 am
12. By the way, it’s so stupid that the Chinese government banned the press from Tibet. So stupid. They still lack the skill to deal with and utilize the international media.

    亂童

    20 Mar 08 at 4:51 am
13. I am sorry I overacted, since some of your words like “why not letting tibetian living back in slavery”, “Because of the communistic idea, which people once had?” too extreme which reminds me something provoking me.

    “As far as I can see you are quoting exclusively from CCTV reports.”
    updated information is not the only point. when we talking about some issue, we not only need to see what’s happening but also need to know what HAPPENED before and we finally get why this happening now. China is not as democratic as developed country, and the way china government doing is not highly democatic, let’s go through some of modern history of China, so that we know what’s going on..

    If you pay more attention to just-ended “The political session: two national meetings”, you will find democracy in China, that’s very interesting. This is anual highest political meeting held in Beijing in spring season, made up of the Chinese People’s Consultative Conference and the National People’s Congress. You might easily find lots of information about this two national meetings through internet. It’s difficult to explain the whole system, but simply: All goven officials, scientists, socialists and people representatives gather together and discuss most issues happening in China. Actually most of the big decisions are discussed by these two national meetings, for example: approval or not of “Three Gorges Dam”, which was once intensely debated among top top Environmentalists, sociologist and economists. I don’t know if the issue “is it good time to lift of the ban of internet?” is discussed in two meetings, but I guess it should be, at least some guy in two meetings might mention about it. some representative from Yunnan province refered to the high cost of cellphone fee, mobile fee has already downgraded to lower level. My little brother’s girlfriend’s father is working in health administration field, so I get lots of interesting informations about health reform. Right now one of most important point in the two meetings is to improve health insurance especially in rural area. since right now there has 0.9 billion people uncovered in health insurance, most of them are from rural population. I don’t want to go to all the details about this, since it’s too much and cost time to write it. But simply let you know, the point of the two meetings this year is “the people’s livelihood”, especially rural people who makeup the most part of poor people in China. Almost every issues about poor people ,about high-rise buildings will be discussed, our representatives and Consultative Conference members perform the similar role as senators in America. There is no dictator goerning in china government.

    China premiers are always very personal charming, especially recent two term: Wen and Zhu, and also the first premier Zhou. I like to mention that in premier news conference, our premier Wen refered to American history to respond when american jounalist aggressively asked, and refered to indian ancient poem to answer indian jounalist, and often used China ancient words definitely displeasing translator.. I pay much attention to two meetings, especially premier news conference. When I was young, I used to think that two meetings has no meanings but only broadcasting politics and strengthen politics control. But after I studying some economics, pay attention to social and politics issues, I changed minds, when I want to know what china government will emphasis on next year, I find lots of information from two meetings. Also, I know well some one attending two meetings, so I get lots of answers that what happening inside. It’s really interesting. my brother staying in China right now, he listens to radio these days, and he also tell lots of information in the interview with representatives. So, I say, anyone even Chinese people, who didn’t read lots of books didn’t study economics politcs social issues, will not understanding what’s going on in China in our government. I love my country, I have no reason to like a government, but our government really did a good job. look what they bring to china these 30 years, it’s amazing! Happily, I like to tell you that most of leaders in the highest position are good. At least Hu and Wen is good. but it’s problem that how to guarantee each term we get good leader in highest position like hu wen? That’s truly big trouble. I don’t want to argue about the former leaders in China, but at least some of them contribute to our country, and make china more and more prosperous.

    I read a article from an economics phd in harvard, he said most of his articles blamed chinese government taking wrong measures or something else, but he should admit that chinese government did a really job, if let he grade it, he give 90+. he also think chinese government should be put in first 10% among all the government in this world, compared to every country in history and compare to other countries with same “Per capita income” level. rethink it, isn’t it?

    “where did it get more democratic?”
    as you asked, as I mentioned above, it’s only tiny part of democracy in China. If you need to know more, as I said, I need to write a book to talk about it. If you really want to get to know democracy in China, take time, apply some master degree program in field of “China democracy” to study it. One or two years you will get it. I am not kidding, I live in China for how many years and finally make me partly know some of China politics and social issues. democracy in China is improving and all smart people are working hard on it, it exists regardless of whether you know about it.

    On the other hand, we agree that our democracy progress doesn’t keep pace with economics progress, many socialists raise this issue. But it’s not easy to say, “right now we improve democracy faster!” For example: Some people in government think that making our country much more open right now might cause unexpected turmoil, and that’s not good, since at current stage we need to focus on economics development, turmoil is not what we want. tai-independence and Dalai group is waiting for chance, some western countries are really not friendly, as you know, some western country enjoy invading if you are not strong. In this situation, different people in government and top socialists and economists in think tank hold different opinions, and they are always debating. You can not feel, but it is happening inside, intensely, democracy.

    recommend a article, if you can’t read chinese, click the blue chinese character “英” laying on the right side to the big title.
    http://chinese.wsj.com/gb/20080318/chw132409.asp?source=mostpopular1

    cultural revolution is history.. different people different opinions. Right now all the people in government agree that’s a mistake. And what happened inside communist party’s highest position during cultural revolution, and why this event happened, there are lots of books talk about it. it’s interesting. finally, our government learn the lessons form C revolution, that’s how our government improve themselves.

    I always mention “government”, not “communist party”, since, acturally, in my personal opinion, Single party in China now actually means no party in China. “Party” has preference, like conservative or progressive. but single party in China, has both conservative and progressive opinions inside our party, actually we have no party, we only have signle government. the government’s goal is to improve people’s life, nothing else, we don’t care ism. we only care people’s life and country strongness.

    “But tell me, what are the good reasons nowadays to suppress critics and information within the society?”
    government don’t suppress critics right now. there are lots of critics voices actually, if you read chinese, you will feel it. actually it’s not “lots”, is “too much” to some degree, some of critics come from nowhere with no evidence. what government don’t want is “radical critics” with no good effect, some of people in government think it might cause turmoil, as I mentioned above. Once again, this situation will change, government is considering. years later I believe you will see the change, might be surprising.

    Another thing, I want to simply talk about six four event, which is 1 9 8 9 tian~ event. (please don’t type the word directly, it might cause this blog blocked from mainland)
    there are some videos about that event on internet, I watched some, it will help you understand more. Story began like this: government thought it should let people to have more democracy and let them freely talk about disadvantage of government. and then it happened, like you said, democracy, freely talk any bad thing about government, it truly happend during several years before 1 9 8 9. I have a very interesting television show about china which is produced by official TV station, and this TV show is broadcasting bad thing in china culture and our current situation, many reflection thoughts, which is not gonna be permitted to on screen at current years. This is what was like in that years.
    A big country, can not be totally democratic in one or two years, we need several decades to change. some thing become democratic but some not, then some people begin to ask more democratic rights. That’s good thing, government think voices from people should be considered. Students are very radical, as you know, young people. Some of them begin organize parade to ask for more democracy. The first time, although they are kids knowing nothing but naive ideas, government approval their request. This parade ends with full confidence among students. But before that there was a leading article saying they are radicals and reactionary. leaders of students worried about that, and asked government to call back the article. government didn’t respond,, actually it’s nothing big.. These student leaders started another much bigger parade, and have students living in tian square to protest. this protest lasted around two weeks, it was mess up in square. government had really much patient to talk to students at beginning. Although these students are ignorant and naive, government still hold a meeting talk to sutdent leaders…….I cann’t believe this..government talk to students. these students know nothing, it’s really big joke. actually at that time, all the cctv channels support students, so you can tell it was really very open that years. But sutdents didn’t want to leave whatever government did or said.. actually these students even didn’t know what they want to accomplish, they just stay and stay and call slogan again and again.
    The situation was getting worse, some of protestors in square killed police or soldiers, they hang dead body in the square.
    Did western protestors ever did this?
    Another bad thing, people in government are intensely debating, some conservative people who think this is not protest but rebellion, this opinion advocates use military to dispel. And another opinion advocates peaceful settlement. When killing happened, conservative force get stronger hand inside government. One day before military operated, some of people in government has already lost position in government, they came to square trying to persuade students to leave. Before military use force, loudspeaker was broadcasting many times to warn anyone in square to leave, government will not hesitate to dispel crowd. Finally military shot some one confront military, to dispel people. It was not massacre. But you could imagine, when armyman’s brother were killed by these protestors, I don’t think armyman would be any patient to these protestors. some protestors staying in the centre of square were finally safely sent back home, fortunately they never confront military, and so didn’t get hurt.

    Ok, over.. So, when protestor use force or kill people, China government is very sensitive about that. Some of people in government think we need to control this, so that our country could peacefully focus on economics development. I partly agree, China needs economics development more than democracy at current stage. But I also think we need to change ways to deal with this stuff, our democracy progress is too slow.

    you asked , why not right now democracy why not let press into tibet.
    Answer: some of people in government are conservative, some are not, they are debating. So, I said, it will change, we expect.

    You advocate democracy. democracy is not always the best choice. Actually totally democracy is the best and not possible. I want to introduce another article about this issue, but it’s chinese and didn’t find any translation version: Democracy is the result, not reason. For example, American society is highly developed but which is not because of highly democracy. Because American is developed, so it is highly democratic. On ther words, high level democracy is not appropriate for low level society. China can not carry too high democracy, since our society is not well developed.

    The biggest anxious is that many countries in this world are not friendly, and many people don’t have tolerate heart. I want to ask again, what’s this related to Olympics?

    Once again, you want to see highly democracy in China? we too, please give her time. Thanks.

    iceless

    20 Mar 08 at 4:09 pm
14. show another thing, it’s chinese website, but it deosn’t matter..slide down a little to see how CNN cut the picture they get..
    So you know why don’t want western press go into tibet.. they don’t want truth, they only want things they could make fake evidence to frame china government..
    CNN said: 80, and this number come from some tibetan… I don’t know where come 80 .. from CNN? you believe CNN?

    http://military.club.china.com/data/thread/1011/145/47/34/4_1.html

    iceless

    20 Mar 08 at 4:46 pm
15. Thank you for commenting on my article. I am glad to here I am not the sole voice of reason. I just hope more people would choose to do their homework before taking up uninformed stances.

    A lot of the points between your article and mine overlap. The way I see it, culture is in a constant state of evolution. It cannot be static, but rather represents the makeup of a population at a give point in time. It is thus silly to entertain the argument that, somehow Tibetan culture should be preserved.

    I agree that the Chinese should not restrict the cultural activities of the Tibetan people, but it is very much a different thing to say that Tibet should be kept isolated from the immigration of Han Chinese, so to preserve its culture.

    Adil

    20 Mar 08 at 9:34 pm
16. I made a mistake in one sentence above:
    ” Actually totally democracy is the best and not possible. ”
    in fact, I want to say:
    “Actually totally democracy is the worst thing and not possible. “

    iceless

    21 Mar 08 at 12:16 am
17. This is the very first time I’ve seen so long in the same page written by my friends.

    Hao

    21 Mar 08 at 1:55 am
18. I think the headline of this article is really well chosen, even though it wasn’t predictable what’s going to happen in the comments.
    Thanks a lot for exchanging arguments and perspectives.

    Well I don’t think we can get a shared conclusion about all these things. Maybe it’s true, and
    particularly iceless as well as me are too pre-programmed by the environment we grew up in and further we don’t know enough about the countries where each other are from.
    Wherever I live and travel I try to be open minded and I’m always most interested to see different understandings, perspectives of people and their life. But well, what I basically discovered by that it is always not more than a try. Which doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try as hard as we can. And this I don’t need to relate to China I could relate this to every place, for everybody.

    iceless, I really think you could be a succesfull politician … anywhere in the world. As you more worried about economics than about the people.
    I don’t want to attack you, it’s just the main point where our opinions clash too much as we could agree on something. But that’s fine.

    Democracy is related to the developement of a country, that’s true. But to me U.S. is really not a good example. Bush is probably the most internationally hated Coutries leader - since a long time. But he came out of a democratic system, and I think the majority in U.S. feels ashamed for him. Further the structures of power in U.S. are more comparable with the structures of Mafia or Triads. The U.S. lies and betrays it’s own country. They kill thousands of people just for money and power. And it’s more the people in the background, rather than for example the elected persons, such as bush themself, who make it such a problem. Because those people don’t get elected directly, they’re just there. So this kind of networks undergoes the democratic system on the paper in a way, so that even if there is still something which is under influence in a democratic way. It’s hardly the most democratic country …. to me.

    But this kind of developement in a way I can also see in Europe. Suddenly the Goverments try to raise the control. Especially regarding communication systems they start to diminish the rights of people which should be set by the constitutions. The argument is mostly terrorism. Which is a little bit strange, as if you will ask the majority of people in european countries, they are not really worried about terrorism. So how come the democratic elected goverment worries so much about it? This is one point which shows me how democratic these countries are.

    I can’t argue against the China issue anymore, because I don’t have any facts for anything. I can only accord to things which people told me. But generally - just by feeling nothing rational, I would always more trust people with a more critic view. As I said before, your opinion is quite matching with the official perspective, even though maybe for different reasons.
    The only negative you admit are the things which even the Goverment has to admit, as there is no way around. But, well….maybe you are right.

    BUT what you said about tia … makes me sad, you blame people which sacrificed there own status?!
    I saw some videos, but I didn’t see any students killing soldiers, even though it might be true, but why the Goverment makes such a mystery around it then …. again. I will always have problems to trust someone who is hiding something. Why pages got blocked and they don’t want to discuss it, if they did the right thing. Because others could abuse it against them? That’s so stupid and I can’t imagine it, just because everybody knows that this is making it worse.

    Anyway, the politicians who spoke to those “naive” students during the protest, might be useless, senseless, but at the end it’s an act of humanity to ask them in a personal dialogue to stop the hunger strike. And that’s why they get thrown out of the party?! That shows me how diverse the people in the Goverment can be, but then they are not accepted anymore.

    Well, the country where i’m from. Most of the rights and opportunities I got, I got because of the students movement. From my fathers and uncle’s time. Because they demonstrated for it, yes even terroristic acts, which is a quite complicated issue.
    I mean first you recommend me to study sth like chinese culture in university to get a broader view of the things and then you say, students are naive and don’t know a shit about anything.
    How come? you graduated already?

    “cultural revolution is history.. different people different opinions. Right now all the people in government agree that’s a mistake.”
    But why Mao is still everywhere, if they thing it ws wrong?

    “Answer: some of people in government are conservative, some are not, they are debating. So, I said, it will change, we expect.”

    True, but I don’t think that other opinions within the Goverment are accepted. I heard from other Chinese that familymembers have been into the congress, just being sad about things they understand as wrong, but they can’t do anything against it not even by taking part in this level.

    “When killing happened, conservative force get stronger hand inside government.”
    or… when conservative force gets stronger hand inside government, killing happens.

    Sorry, but you will never get me to the point that I would accept that any protestor got shot anywhere. If someone directly endangers the life of a specific person weapons might be used to prevent this. But I don’t believe that was the case with all the killed students.
    It makes also difference to use something like this:

    http://www.mope.de/web/bgs50/IMG_9471.jpg

    instead of tanks and so on.
    it has nothing to do with china in special, but I think the people’s voice is the most important to hear, even though i don’t believe in total democracy or that it exists. But I don’t get the point, that we arguing always so much about history. I mean maybe Taiwan or Tibet should belong to China for political reasons, but if the majority of the people living in there environment don’t want it, where is the point.
    Maybe that isn’t the case, but it isn’t what I believe.
    But otherwise there is no argument for me to act against it.

    Adil, but i don’t think chinese weren’t allowed to live in Tibet before, were they?
    There is a difference in letting people move there and active support of settlement, such as financial support by goverment to do so, to build such a train and so on….
    there is always evolution but this is not an argument for anything, as it doesn’t say anything about what kind of changes have to happen.

    that’s it we keep splitted in a way, but thanks a lot for this rich exchange

    _p

    21 Mar 08 at 8:32 am
19. Thanks a lot for exchanging arguments and perspectives.

    I am still graduate student, and one year away from undergraduate. When I said naive, actually I agree I was naive when junior. The first time I watched the video, which I believe it might be produced by BBC or other european tv station, and I blamed government in the tian square, I blamed government banning internet. I felt sad that our country has a long way to go to catch developed democratic country. I hated mao, I hated c revolution, I blamed communist party. I used to have all the same opinions as most of Chinese young people who hate our government. That’s easy to be understood, you know , like

    you said, these stuffs, every one will not like it.

    I could recall the first time I changed a little in my mind , is the when junior , I exchanged my ideas with my father, who read a lot with much richer knowledge. He patiently told me what’s going on and I totally didn’t agree with him at that time. Well, it’s fine. But after that, I began to rethink these stuff: tian event, mao, culture revolution, rethink all the things.. and review the video. All the things my father tried to explain to me are very matching to every evidence. I communicated with many people in old age like 40 - 60, they are knowledgable and more experiences, they know way much more things than me. I like to talk to them. Then I find more interesting views from them. like some of them said, we should have democratic Referendum on city governor level and keep single government on the highest dominion, which keep both advantages of China and America political system.. That’s interesting. well , politics system is a very professional issue, I am not knowledegable to figure out, leave it to socialists and political scientists.

    Gradually, I learn two things: communicating with people smarter than me, people with richer knowledge than me, and thinking both sides of one issue, hearing from people standing both sides of one issue before making a judgement…

    Indeed, read a lot and view a lot, some time I can not tell the truth inside. communicating with people helps a lot. And still I need to think over on the both sides, which makes me well understand.

    About mao, mao did great thing as well as made big mistake. Mao truly wanted to build a prosperous country people living a happy life, he is a giant. please listen to some American presidents and old masters, I don’t remember who , but many great people at a master level admire mao, why? I think there are reasons. One of my uncles told me, after he read a lot books, he started to understand mao. He said a great man has great thing inside as well as great drawbacks, that’s what a great man. Mao has an ideal idea about country. So, that’s historical issue, very complicated and lots of factors. Let it be, you know, history. I blamed mao before, but after talking to some people holding different opinions, I changed my mind. Truly, every one who have read a lot modern history of China didn’t aggressively blamed mao. I confess that I didn’t read a lot about mao. but I like to hear what these people say. I believe one thing, when you want argue about something, study well and communicate to different people, or what you said is truly not convincing, because you really don’t know much about it. By the way, culture revolution is not what exact mao wanted, he is really very old and with not very clear mind, and some bad guy make use of his commands, and cheated him. so he knows nothing about culture revolution.

    What I agree with you is the picture you show, that’s right. actually I thought a million times why government never choose this tool. I don’t know, when I ask my father, he don’t know either.. hehe. That’s a point. If anyone who could give me a reason about that, I appreciate to listen.

    I was not meant to blame protestor students in the tian square, what I tried to say is : there are some reasons, I tried to offer another view from another degree. sometimes you will understand there are good guy in government as well as bad guy. But still sometimes bad guys can make country stronger which finally benefits people, good guys like mao, made a big mistake. It’s hard to say which one we need in government, maybe we need both… And, the conservative people in government advocate use military as I mentioned, they are not totally bad. They just hold a view which is not democratic..

    So like I said, all the things are complicated.. when you see the appearance, you don’t know the whole thing.

    My opinions are truly rather on official degree. I love our country, I love our people. I worry about all the big issues of our country, I really want to figure out the way to make our country prosperous, even though I can not help. Understaning is what all different people in different cultures should have. we live in totally different culture, I don’t want to see our people attack other people, as well don’t want to see other people attack us. Protest against tibet issue is good, but what’s that related to Olympics? I think all the people should have a tolerate heart. understanding each other.

    I don’t agree that all the issue should be voted by all citizens. Actually I really don’t know how common people could tell which health insurance system is better between obama’s and hillary’s.. Does every one have a phd degree in health administration or every one knows a lot about that? Is abort legal, should be listened to most people? what about human rights of other people who need abort? democracy sometimes is contradictory. I really don’t agree to ignore the minority’s human rights. I agree that big issues should be decided among top scientists and socialists and economists and etc these top people who worry about how to make people’s life better. So when you say, let taiwan independent, since most people want it. I don’t believe most people want that, I talked a girl from taiwan, she said most of people don’t care, live a happy life is the most important thing. I agree with this. common people please don’t worry about big issues. And this issue should not be voted by common people.

    When you meet majority’s desire, do you ever care about minority’s? Vote among all the people, that’s really a big joke.

    I am not attacking your political system, in a socialist and economist’s degree, I am trying to say this system is not the best choice.

    I was moved when people from mainland and taiwan gather together go to Diaoyutai Islands for dignity of our country. when we face other unfriendly country, we are so in one family. If you don’t know about this issue, here is link in wiki:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senkaku_Islands

    Other thing about japan’s Okinawa
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryukyu_Kingdom
    actually it’s ryukyu kingdom before, but this kingdom was ruined by Japanese. No one blame them, since western government hide it, all people in world blame China because western government don’t like China.

    And another thing, you might forget, peace. For example:
    Palestinians and the Israelis lived a happy life in an ancient land there, it ends when border was drawn.
    countries in Africa , it is since the colonizers randomly plot out borders on the map, leading to the endless disputes. They live well in those lands for thousands of years, it is because the “concept” of the border and man-made, makes no peace day.

    For peace in taiwan channel,

    Thanks a lot for this rich exchange.

    iceless

    21 Mar 08 at 11:54 am
20. I’ve gone through all those long words, kinda refreshing…But the comment disputing, as I see, went far away from the well-written article itself.

    Well,people do always try to be objective when commenting, however, we saw the whole world through our own eyes. There’s no way when arguing anything by self-assuming having taken an out-of-the-hot-spot stance. Me an engineering postgraduate, could never elaborate my point in such a cogent way, just to give away personal arguments
    1. if I were an outsider, I’d sheerly shout “Dam’it, stop any killing! Humanility!”, and show the dramastic photos all over the world as I wish. Definitely. But sorry, ye, I’m ordinary Han Chinese, what I care most is peace in my homeland. I can not see any good by promoting all those shit at this critical moment, but to bring the conflict escalated. sound similar with official propaganda, huh? I DO think so. Chinese can be very irrational, I mean, on ethnic issues really (I’m Chinese, so sure about this), and I bet Tibetan (not sure about Tibetans, but at least some Tibetans, by inferring from current avaliable news) are also radical on racism topics. Both sides, as far as I see, are easily sitrred up by either domestic powers or international influences. I do not think this kind of demo. totally comparable to what those mentioned in France and Berlin. I doubt if Chinese have ever had any demostration in the same way and style what the westerners might define as. Just an example what I’m told privately about the “anti-Japanese demostration” around 2005(or 2004? I cannot remember) in Chengdu: “Youths broke into Ito Yokado shopping mall, robbing whatever labelled Sony, Panasonic etc, and fanned out with the latest PSP(whatever) when the police arrived.” I don’t mean to relate Tibetan demostration with violent ones like that, and yes, none of us have any reports from third-party observations. I just wanna say, those kind of demostrations do happen and could happen in nowadays China really. Ordinary people living in peace do not wanna enlarge ethnic conflict and put cities like Chengdu in danger anyway.
    2. @_p, I very much go with you on that “the news are useless if they cannot be critical”. They are supposed to be, I mean, post critical views against anything. But what I’m worried about when reading BBC news, you know, is that it would stimulate Tibetan ethnic emotion, and effectively, have some Han ethnic groups over react against Tibet. No matter what you might take it, I personally strongly believe that international powers such as CIA or through whatever channels, has sth to do with Dalai Lama (Wikipedia states 1959 incident is supported by CIA,right?), and also other hot issues like 1989 Tiananmen. While westerners never talk about this, many Chinese indeed are precautious about the offically-called sabotages (regradless they really exist or not, and to how much scale)

    BREIFLY, there are gaps between us when looking at the single issue. Thus, I’m happy if there’s channel we could exchange things as standing ratioal as possible (though definitely not absolutely objective ever)
    like by quoting your word,
    ”
    “cultural revolution is history.. different people different opinions. Right now all the people in government agree that’s a mistake.”
    But why Mao is still everywhere, if they thing it ws wrong?
    ”
    as seemly you are seeing Mao a satan because of cultural revolution (or potantially communism ideology?)? but to majority Chinese, I would say, Mao unified a schismatical China militarily, and at the expense of many lives yes, but do good for Chinese people in the long run. (I mean, if you look at the 19th&20th Chinese history, and how Chinese history textbooks organize all those stuff, you might be able better to understand why sectarian separation and even Taiwan splittism draws so much and so serious Chinese attention. Though personally I could tell you that not every Han Chinese happy with the goverment ethnic policies entitling so much priorities to minorities, as SOME Uigurs groups, for example, are doing things really evil like thieving and robbing in my hometown)

    Jing

    21 Mar 08 at 11:55 am
21. I agree with you Jing, mao is a great man, who ends the era in which china be trampled countless times by other evil empires. No him no China today.

    iceless

    21 Mar 08 at 12:10 pm
22. why my comment needs moderation?…… A long reply can not be posted..

    iceless

    21 Mar 08 at 12:16 pm
23. seemly I forgot to have my point explict after saying all those stuff…Just wanna say there is somehow an explanation for goverment control on media in Tibet right at this critical moment, in a way that Westererns can hardly understand, as far as I’m concerned.

    But I’d like to reiterate, press freedom should definitely be respected anywhere in the world, while it’s missing in China. And press is only admirable when they’re critical.

    For now, the qualified freedom, as I see, would be best realized when both sides calm down, rather than aggravating the situation by keep shouting to Tibetans (and the whole world)”look, Han is treating you unfairly” (what BBCs are doing), and triggering Han people extreme reaction at worst.
    (again, BBCs are essentially right to report so, though. Radical ethnical people cannot see the whole picture, which highly possibly resulting in violence)

    Jing

    21 Mar 08 at 12:20 pm
24. I dislike Mao. Simply because of the Cultural Revolution. It’s too much for me to handle.

    亂童

    21 Mar 08 at 1:27 pm
25. Jing, thanks for ur comment. Well the point with the press, it is not only that Western people can’t understand it. The more it’s pushing the hate and mistrust on both sites, that’s why i still don’t want to see any advantage of doing so.

    And Mao …. he is not evil to me, again something i can hardly judge and i guess for most foreign people it’s quite he is not more like an idol on some toys, probably they even know his picture more because of andy warhole than by something else.
    But iceless, if u say the cultural revolution was a mistake and so many people got killed for the wrong thing, why Mao is still a great person? Or he wasn’t involved in that?
    I’m from Germany, and by ignoring certain things I could say Hitler was a great leader as he brought up the economy such a lot, less unemployment and build the highways (I am NOT comparing Hitler and Mao just trying to find an example)….but I can’t and wouldn’t say that at all….. for certain reasons.

    _p

    21 Mar 08 at 2:44 pm
26. Thanks so much for your comments _p. I think many of our ideas agree. Still, one really needs to jump out of the box to understand the views of ppl with a different cultural background. And I’m glad all of us are doing so but not simply judging ppl based on what we heard but not what we knew.

    亂童

    21 Mar 08 at 3:32 pm
27. well, actually I hate the excessive media censorship very much, as my personal Chinese blog entries went blocked from time to time just for mentioning one sensive keyword (etc.), even if the whole article has nothing to do with any anti-gov. viewpoint. That’s really ridiculous and annoying, I mean, how the gov. handle the foreign reports (from you know SARS in 2003, people actually hoped to see some progress in freedom of journalists) Even now I’d scorn the way gov treating foreign reporters as all you guys do, if not less than

    Essentially, what I’m talking of here is that particular timing for intensively exposing the tricky issue. Will the continuous domestic&worldwide boiling discussion and all kinds of pressure, especially (highly potentially)bias reports against China RIGHT NOW do good or not? not all Chinese could think & talk like we did here. many are either too worldly to say a word (getting himself into trouble) or too radical to response without keeping a bigger picture in mind. A common misunderstanding by Westerneres is “all the Chinese people are brainwashed by their gov.” pls do not predict that if one has not been among common Chinese youths.

    I’ve browsed online a lot today, and say, some Chinese guys are citing CNN news in their own way, if you know what I mean (by proving CNN is faking photos to oppose China). If I expose what I see here in BBC etc. to my fellows, I really cannot imagine what reaction would emerge, but definitely not towards the way calming down both sides (by saying sides I mean, civilian sides). Chinese commons are not 100% like Western commons, so I wouldn’t expect the gov. do the same way as their western counterparts.

    For now, what worries me most would be the safety of Han Chinese in cities like Chengdu, Kunming where Tibetans heavily reside and the well-being of Tibetan students holding silent sit in Central University for Nationalities in Beijing. Please, think about them. They have to get their life going on after all this whole shit!
    I’d not suffer from further (if esescalated) conflict as long as I’m abroad, you guys all here seemly either as well. But civilians in China and Tibet would suffer! so think about it when you urge intensive reports, think about it when you heat the boiling water!

    very sorry if I’m seen too drastic. Just a bit angry when watching SKY news just now, quoting:
    Chinese goverment states 18 ‘civilians’ have been killed during the protest.
    What they are trying to say is all implicit by using the quotation mark ” Yes, if you believe that Tibetan protestors have not killed any civilians or even the killed ones are Tibetans actually, you could just throw this f***ing news into garbage bin.(personally I doubt the Chinese officals saying as well) But what you are trying to say with the quotation mark? prove China faking, may Tibetans and Hans further attacking each other as well? That’s kinda explaining why I dislike some Western media (thus could not trust them all the time)

    Again, I greatly apprecieate what the host here said,
    (it’d be good)”all of us are doing so (understand the views of ppl with a different cultural background.) but not simply judging ppl based on what we heard but not what we knew.’
    To put at last, I’d be ashamed you know, when comparing the mutual and cultural tolerance of common Chinese people to the Westerners, like _p, seriously, your comment is worthy indeed to me. Your sober reasoning is (what I say) not popular in Chinese young groups now. And that’s another perspective, I think, supporting my idea that Chinese issues could not be handled in the same way like in West.

    Jing

    21 Mar 08 at 5:14 pm
28. btw, by using the rhetoric like ‘civilian’ (in SKY news) is indeed common in Western journalism as far as I can see, the problem is that ordinary Chinese people would (I bet) take it very irritating

    Jing

    21 Mar 08 at 5:31 pm
29. Please slide this page up, I posted another long piece, which was awaiting moderation, and it’s ok right now. I talked some about mao in that piece.

    Deng xiaoping comment on Mao: seven achievement and three faults.

    On the other hand, I don’t believe Jiang jieshi’s government could build up chinese’s confidence. His government is very weak at international affair. But Mao, Zhou did many nice jobs in foreign relations after liberation 1949, and their successor Deng is also good at diplomacy, which really contribute to our current safe environment. You might never know how west countries baffled China at that years. The China modern diplomacy history is a long history, if you know about this, you will know mao, zhou and communist party better, what they did for our country and people. We like to discuss both the achievements and faults.

    iceless

    21 Mar 08 at 5:54 pm
30. I just read a very interesting post on a harvard economics phd’s blog, it’s in Chinese, suggest every one read it.
    http://kaieconblog.spaces.live.com/Blog/cns!B4C829CC97B9EDD8!5324.entry

    I translate some from this piece:
    politcs govern can not give to religion, since it will be the source of tyranny. look back to european history. And west people forgot that their founding fathers wrote down “government should be splited away from religion”. American people don’t care about tibet, they care about beijing, it’s extremely disingenuous.

    iceless

    21 Mar 08 at 6:20 pm
31. on iceless,
    I listened to one explanation why Gov. did not employ like
    http://www.mope.de/web/bgs50/IMG_9471.jpg
    in 1989, they simply didn’t have it!
    seriously, the gov. have nothing to call at that time when they turn to force, but REAL guns. Plus, they have no good experience in handling demostrations. All they could possible relate to are the riots during cultural revolution.
    The Wujing (People’s Armed Police Force) is re-organized and re-equipeed after 1989 to a large scale (to tackle with possible future demo.). I bet if 1989 incident were happening today, gov. wouldn’t pick up guns now since they’ve got better solutions. I’d say the dilemma at that time faced by the Wujing and army is somewhat comparable to Chengguan (Chinese City Management Administration and Implementation of Law) nowadays. They maintain no legal rights to exist (for the army, it’s definitely illegal to shoot civilians, and PLA surely know), but are actually functioning.
    Chinese gov. is also not the sole to suppress civilians(students) bloodily, even in 1980s (I don’t mean they are right to be bloody, just state the fact). As far as I know, what happened in Gwangju (광주), Korea could be an example. (and arguably supported by U.S.). Having mentioning this, I’d like to partially explain why Chinese sometimes view U.S. and Westerns as a whole hold contradictory standards (i.e. bias agianst China)

    Jing

    21 Mar 08 at 8:36 pm
32. Mao wasn’t involved in the cultural revolution? Also, I got once told, that most of the bad things were done by his wife and not by him.
    Sometimes, by reading iceless comments, I feel like living on an island with my informations, because the taiwanese people, the tibetan people, I talked to told me always the opposite about their independence perspective, than ur references. But maybe it’s because i can only talk english, so there are badly influenced by western media. Same applies to Hong Kong actually. NOBODY wants to be under mainland Goverment. But well for Hong Kong I’m 100 percent sure it’s the common opinion.
    Western news might distort, no doubt, but definitely not as much as mainland media, HOW can you doubt it. I don’t look CNN, and BBC only occasionaly. Sometimes western news say what people want to hear, that’s true I’ve read e.g. articles about China, which were critically on a topic which includes critically also on the common western opinions about china, but the way the headline got chosen by the newspaper, you could easily show a conflict, focussing on the wrong aspects (the china-is-bad aspects).
    Well, difficult to explain. But there are independent reporters, which are critical on common opinions too, in china there are only very few, and almost no way to listen to them, because of the circumstances.
    At times, when Germany was seperated, there was always propaganda on both sides. The “socialists” as well as the “democratic” one. Whereby the first one definitely had the tougher job, simply because the living condition and the freedom of the people was more limited. But how come the people didn’t want to move back after re-unification? (well, in fact in the first years there were some, because the living condition became much worse after the reunification)
    In Hong Kong, the British did a lot of shit, in my opinion they destroyed a lot of chinese culture over here, but how come they don’t want to be under mainland goverment anymore?, a lot would even prefer british goverment (which I can hardly understand, actually) What happened to all of them? all brainwashed by western media?
    regarding US influence with dalai lama and eventually also for tian-event, could be possible. US is always involved to create or enlarge conflicts everywhere in the world, if it’s in there economic interests.
    But nowadays we are not in the times of cold war anymore, so i think the interest should be much less. In fact, the western world is depending on china, not the other way around. If China would collapse now, it would lead to a break down of the world economics.
    it will be much more difficult to make profit with china, if they would change their system now, so nobody with money and power wants that.

    Last but not least, Olympic games…. there won’t be a boykott, for same reasons.
    Iceless, why do you think some wealthy powerfull assholes (these are the people leading almost all countries, don’t know why it should be different especially in china) know better what is good for the people than what the people think themself, I don’t get it.

    Last but not least…. again, I really love China, even though i’m picking so much against it’s structures right now. For me it’s not a conflict at all, especially as I am from the country, where rarely people are proud of there nationality, because of history reasons. In countries all over the world more people are wearing cloth with a german flag on it than in germany (such as german army parkers, or of the football team) Simply just because the feel, the can’t be proud of it. And even nowadays I think a lot of things (entirely different from the history reasons) are going wrong in germany, but still i love this country - in a way.
    Often during discussion with Chinese people, I have the people they would feel it kind of a shame, if they would admit that goverment did something wrong. Why?

    _p

    22 Mar 08 at 5:03 am
33. cannot agree more, _p
    I love China in a way that I’m aware that hundreds of thousands of things going wrong now.
    To put it simple (as I concluded), we Chinese (at least part of us) tend to talk things differently when domestically and internationally. China is a country where heavily influenced (if not dominated) by foreign powers during late 19th and early 20th century. (Though you could also argue it’s a period when it’s civilized) Things easily go wrong when one wanna rectify a weakness but actually overdo it. China, from Western perspective, might be too care about their independent status. You know, we cherish the well-being when we can speak out rather than listen to what US say, Russia say, UK say whatever

    Definitely, nationalism could never be mixed up with the health and happiness of their people. There’s no guarantee there.
    I just wanna explaint a little bit sharing with you guys. And if possible, please keep it rational when you judge anything 100%. Please keep in mind even Hongkong is changing (so is Tibet etc.), and Hongkongese living abroad or speaking fluent English can never represent 100% ppl

    If you have me to say about the health and wealth of people, I’d say Taiwan gov. is doing shit, Hongkong no better (from my perpective), rather China (at least parts of China) is really doing sth
    Again, most commons care not it’s British gov or Chinese gov (though the elites and richest would care). They care how they are living everyday. I certainly have a few Hongkongese and Taiwanese acquaintances (they are residents, not someone living abroad or potentially having a lot of money to travelling often) to have me say these. Though I inferred it’s 50%-50% in Taiwan (on hostility to China), I never judged so with 100% confidence purely. Even, I certainly can not go with you saying what 100% Hongkongnese not want under Chinese Gov, based on what I really experienced. (yet I don’t wanna argue with you on such issues, all wanaa say it stop judging anything with 100% confidence, it sounds like Mao’s era thing)

    Jing

    22 Mar 08 at 7:07 am
34. well, u are right. But I didn’t mean to say 100 % of Hong Kong people don’t want a (mainland) chinese goverment.
    But since I live here now for quite a while and haven’t met even one person which want the mainland goverment, I concluded that the majority is against it. and refered thereby that I’m quite (100%) sure that the majority in Hong Kong don’t wants it. And of course, even that is not proving the 100 % i mentioned, u are right.
    For Taiwan it’s the same, but as I only know very few people from there I won’t argue in the same way, let’s wait for the election results.

    _p

    22 Mar 08 at 9:20 am
35. results are there, and I don’t wanna comment
    for Hongkong, yes I can imagine, if I were Hongkongese, I wouldn’t wanna be under either Chinese nor British gov. yet
    Then my question is, what kind of gov. ther want, absolute autonomy? how do you define that autonomy?
    Politcs and ppl’s preferences are not that simple, say I don’t wanna Chinese gov. you know, I could also argue that, I’d like municipal autonomy for my hometown as well, rather than give a hand out for poor areas and Tibet, Uigur autonomy and Hongkong, you know (maybe you don’t know, but my hometown has been supplying food stuff like chicken meat etc. not really selling you know for long to Hongkong) seriously, I don’t think Hongkong could be trully independent like Singapore or somewhere else. Hongkong and China are so inter-linked no matter you admit or not. As an individual, I could argue, yes, independent Hongkong. Why not more power for my city government as well? I would say.
    Things can not be put that simple when you say what, majority want what. They may not know many things professionaly even rightly.

    I have been told that Hilter is voted by most Germans at that time. (you could teach me about this if you’d like). Though I don’t meat to prove democracy is not good, it indeed makes me think twice about referendum

    Yes, I don’t doubt you if you say majority of Hongkong don’t like Chinese Gov. But that is COMMON. As you mentioned, you know certain things are going wrong in your country as well. Me too. Hongkongnese as well. That’s what a critical modern people should do. how comes it surprise you, when it come to China, Hongkong, Taiwan? I know you’d deny it’s bias. But to me, it is. And I shall refer to the Gwangju incident in 1980 in Korea again, which really shapes my thinking that Western Gov. are treating China in bias

    Jing

    22 Mar 08 at 10:05 am
36. “Mao wasn’t involved in the cultural revolution?”
    I didn’t mean this….I admit that is a really big mistake made by him. please listen to another great man’s comment on mao: seven achievement and three faults.
    I like to listen to some great master’s comments, since I am not knowledgable enough to many issues.

    voted by majority people,,, this is really not good idea…hitler is voted by majority people… once again, I really don’t think these big issues should be decided by common people. common people care about their life, so let common people have rights to influence the issues relating to their life level. Actually most of common people don’t care about who is the gov, but indeed care about whether their life will improve.

    so please don’t talk about majority minority, it’s meaningless.

    But, I still really suggest you to ask some senior hongkong people and senior people from taiwan, since as far as I know, among the young people, most of them don’t like chinese gov. But how about senior people, especially knowledgable? I really doubt your information that absolutely majority of hongkong people and taiwan people want independence, which is conflict with information I got,,please check more people and especiall in different ages.

    “Iceless, why do you think some wealthy powerfull assholes (these are the people leading almost all countries, don’t know why it should be different especially in china) know better what is good for the people than what the people think themself, I don’t get it.”
    did you ever study a lot in economics, sociology,environment science, politcs science, law? Are common people good at that. Actually, in china, all this big issues are debating among the top experts, for example, like whether or not approval building “Three Gorges Dam”, which is really bid deal. This kind of big issues are really very complicated and need different experts in different fields to discuss it together..
    and you ask why politicians know better..
    do common people know how to improve health insurance? How could common people know whether we should raise interest rate or something else……
    You don’t think politicians know better, ok, I mention one politicians in China, you could google him: Zhu, Rongji, he is really good at maro econoimcs, and help china to avoid “East Asian Financial Crisis” in 1997, won his global reputation as “economics tsar”(means he is authority at economics, not means dictator).

    I believe specialists do their specialities, and common peole monitor it. About people’s life, they don’t worry about how to do, they worry about the result, they monitor gov and give their voices, and then let politician and scientists to discuss the resolvent.

    You don’t want to see collapse of China? If taiwan, hongkong, tibet get independence, that’s the very time when China collapse. American gov will have carnival, they never affaid of China and take advantages whenever however they want. Be realistic, _p,,,right now, hongkong people live a happy life. with strong help of mainland, hongkong succeed to avoid “East Asian Finance Crisis”, which definitely would get extremely tough time without mainland.

    iceless

    22 Mar 08 at 12:36 pm
37. I feel strongly that you are all the time thinking in your way, based on your culture and environment…

    We are knowledgable modern people from mainland, abusolutely most of us are from the most outstanding group in China. We are independent not less than you , we have critical spirit not less than you. But why we have different opinions from you? I deny we are so stupid that totally influenced by China gov or medias.

    _p, thanks for your rich exchange, this experience of communicating with people of different culutures is really interesting, from which I have learnt lot.

    iceless

    22 Mar 08 at 12:47 pm
38. When I said “I really doubt your information that absolutely majority of hongkong people and taiwan people want independence”, I mean I doubt the completeness of this piece of your information.. please don’t misunderstand~~

    Finally, I think we got a long way away from the original field, but that’s fine.

    In sum, I want to say it again, all chinese people expect more democracy in China, Chinese government also expects that and they are seeking a way. You said you don’t feel democracy improvement in China, actually we chinese feel a lot changes. But as you know , Rome is not one-day job, we need time to graduatlly improve it more. Let’s be patient and keep a calmly clear mind, since extreme boycott will only make it worse.

    ps, I really don’t appreciate that german gov official getting involved into boycott to Olympics.

    iceless

    22 Mar 08 at 3:06 pm
39. First of all, I just want to say that I girl mentioned in the beginning of this blog, and since joining “Students for a Free Tibet”, I have received many messages, for people on both sides of this discussion. One, of which is very similar to those posted on this blog. There was a video taken in Llasa, of the protest there, which shows a man on a motorcycle being beaten by protesters. Here is the link that someone sent me, based on this blog:

    http://kadfly.blogspot.com/2008/03/more-from-lhasa.html

    The video link they have is difficult to navigate, and really silly. So, I found the video on youtube under:

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=Jr3vhPo0pK0

    I’m sorry that it has taken so long to reply, I was on a trip to Hong Kong and Guangdong province in China over the past week. I just wanted to clarify myself and the reasons in which I chose to join the club.

    Lin, by the way, thank you for creating this blog for conversation on Tibet. It’s an issue that I feel should be solved.

    So, on the day of March 10th, the day of the worldwide protests, I was in my dorm, and saw the protesters march by. They were holding signs like, “Free Tibet”, “Boycott the Beijing Olympics”, “One World. One Dream”, and so on. I ran down immediately to see what was going on. I took some pictures and videos, so that I could take a closer look later; it turns out I was late for work.

    On the Olympics. I believe the only linking here is that it’s a great outlet for exposure. Since the Olympics are supposed to be something akin to China’s coming out party to the world, China wants them to be very welcoming and extravagant, tagged with a good name. I believe that the Olympics will probably be beautiful, as the Chinese always put a lot of effort into welcoming others. The government is particularly fond of making a good impression on an international level, and who wouldn’t want to? Protesting against the Chinese government, during a time that is supposed to be their shining moment, is a key to gaining international exposure. And, as we have all seen, with the creation of blogs like this one, and posted videos like those on Youtube, there has been much press related to it. So, this is a good thing, to get the word rolling about this issue. Either way it goes, there is no use for so many people to be dying every day, no matter which side it is from.

    I wouldn’t have joined the group, solely based on seeing the protests, if it would not have been for my encounter with a Tibetan escapee on the train ride to work. She had learned English in India, after escaping Tibet, where the rest of her family still lives. There were a few things that she told me about her life that I sympathized with, and if these things had happened to me, I too would want justice.

    1.) Tibetan religious practices are still banned. There are small organizations within each community which help Tibetans worship secretly. These people also help them escape to India, where they have a better chance of starting a good life and living free. Once in India, they can get a passport as a political escapee. This is how she made it to the USA.

    2.) She has no way of contacting her family. She may never know the fate of her family, because she has no way of contacting them. They are all still in Tibet, as far as she knows. If they have escaped, she has no one of finding out.

    This is a terrible way to live, never knowing if your friends or family members are safe or not, especially in an area of such turmoil. Just think if this was you or one of your family members. Even worse, just think if you were one of the family members that got left behind in such a violent part of the world, with no rights to leave, with only the option of illegally escaping and finding your way to India, where you still have very little rights, but live with more hope. This is a terrible life, and I felt very compassionate towards her when she told me these things.

    3.) She said the most compelling thing. “Now that I am free, I can do something.” As a newly free Tibetan, as of a year ago, she is reaching out to try to help those still in Tibet. She grew up there, left her family there, and escaped from there. If she has a good enough reason to be doing all of this, and to stand behind her people in order to free the rest of Tibet, then I think that valor should be honored.

    There is such a mixed view of Tibet, through all of the media outlets that we see, whether it is CCTV or various Western sources, each having their own perspective, believing that they are reporting to the best of their abilities. I want to also point out that the first person to post on the link listed above was a BBC representative, who was interested in publishing the information on the violent protest.

    I believed in the woman that I met, and I saw so many Tibetans at the protest in New York, who were very peaceful about it. Of course, they are angry, though. Who wouldn’t be? They have family members there, where violence is an every day occurrence. I would be frightened out of my mind if I had family members there.

    ———————————–

    Another note from personal experience.

    I spent a while in China, and I hope to work there some day. I love Chinese culture, and I am constantly surprised by how much there is to learn about it. I am studying Chinese, and I am currently applying for jobs in Beijing.

    How scared do you think I am to get a job after making these posts? Large firms in China do extensive research on applicants, including their facebook accounts and any online postings. I am very scared that my involvement in these discussions would narrow my job options. Furthermore, if I actually do get a job in China, I will probably be highly watched by the Chinese government, if I am not already. But let me clarify that this is a very important worldly issue, and I would be a hypocrite if I didn’t stand up for what I have seen and heard.

    I can only speak from my perspective, and I find it quite interesting that people all over the internet have been saying things like “Shame on Western media” and “You have no clue unless you’ve been to Tibet”, and so on. We only have our perspectives to learn from. Now that I have seen all of the posts on this blog, I have now learned a little from your perspectives, too. Thank you for all of your posts; I will keep them in mind as I develop my full opinion on this issue.

    Never the less, though, the Tibetan woman I met on the subway will continue to have a lasting impression on me, as she had lived her entire life there until deciding to escape a year ago. There has to be someone who stands up with her, and I saw thousands during the march. I joined the group so that I can learn from them. Their president is Tibetan, by the way, and I think we could learn a lot from him as well. I’ll forward this blog to him.

    Sincerely,
    Erica

    Erica

    22 Mar 08 at 8:45 pm
40. Wow, just five minutes after I finished writing the last post, I got an email from a friend who had signed a petition to get Chinese officials to take more notice of this issue. The petition is located at:

    http://www.avaaz.org/en/tibet_end_the_violence/98.php/?CLICK_TF_TRACK

    In four days, 680,330 people have signed the petition. The goal is 1,000,000. Take a look. Maybe the numbers have risen already.

    Sincerely,
    Erica

    Erica

    22 Mar 08 at 9:05 pm
41. Thanks a thousand Erica. it’s midnight here but I’ll try to have my word as clear as possible. In a brief way though, you know, sleepy now.

    And your saying about job in China scared me, thinking that I’m expecting going back home definitely, you know, I dare not speak words differnetly here from the officals. I never know you’d be frightened by potential surveillance…omg

    I listen to you, and I listen to the Tibetan escapee you mentioned. I feel compassionate on all the things that Tibetan said.

    But very sorry, I cannot be 100% percent certain if those things are facts or stories. I admit I’m messed up. Right, neither Western media nor Chinese media are not reliable, then how could me know,,, truly sad about that. I keep suspicious, in a way that maybe you don’t understand, where growing up in a mercantile society, where certain kinds of cheats, theives etc. do exist. sorry but I really have seen so many swindles sounding like those things… I hope I’m wrong. But for now, I believe every word you said, but totally precautious about what the escapee told you. You know, the whole story, the wording, the scheme resemble too much earthy diddling I’ve seen, ever been told about etc….

    I looked at the youtube link you mentioned, there’s a Chinese comment right there in the page… exactly explained why I’m so suspicious about that escapee in a way that I think you may hardly understand my reasoning. I tend to translate it, but it’s really late…gave up…

    中国领土包括台湾，大陆（包括西藏，新疆），美国为首的西方世界利用台独，疆独，藏独，法论功，民运等来分裂中国和阻止中国崛起。这些人不只反共，只要什么对中国有利他们就反，什么对中国造成伤害，他们会扇风点火和制造抹黑言论。这些反华份子其实特别有钱的，很多活动排场大，免吃免喝免飞机票，当然都是美国等国家养着的来做为他们的反华工具。西方事件很希望看到中国能像当年的苏联一样跨掉，现在就要看我们政府如何处理了。这次的西藏问题本身不是问题，只是西方世界利用这次事件过于吵做，然而达到中国威胁论的目的，他们希望这件事情闹得越大越好，这样就可以用抹黑的事实来让更多人讨厌中国。如果这次事件不是尽心策划的，为什么这些反华份子能同时在世界各地游行，难道西藏小部份人打，砸，抢，事前不知道中央政府会如何反映？个人觉得这件事是他们挖了个陷阱让中国政府跳。我们不需要跟他们太过于与他们争执，这些反华份子从小受西方世界反华舆论影响，我们的事实再怎么对也改变不了他们的！ 所以大家保持理性。

    Well, what I’d like to clarify is that I really don’t know much about Tibetan (though have been to Tibetan areas) and I dont see any demo. here (since I’m not in Berlin N.Y L.A London whatever), plus I admittedly don’t even know what’s going on in Tibet right now. Yet I mean,
    I’m very suspicious about what you’ve been told, dear Erica.

    Jing

    22 Mar 08 at 11:44 pm
42. also importantly, I donot totaly go with the Chinese comment, at least, I personally do not believe all the Westerners, I mean ppl, would like to see China collapse. That’s really ridiculous saying based on what I got.
    You know, that’s bias. Maybe we have mutual bias agianst each other, which is bad.
    Anyway, facts should be and would be clarified one day from various stories, I believe

    Jing

    22 Mar 08 at 11:46 pm
43. amusingly…I’ve made a mistake when saying
    “I dare not speak words differnetly here from the officals. ”
    faint…

    I mean
    I dare speak words differnetly here from the officals….

    go sleep now…

    Jing

    22 Mar 08 at 11:49 pm
44. And the last errata…
    NOT “Right, neither Western media nor Chinese media are not reliable, ”
    BUT “Right, neither Western media nor Chinese media are reliable,”

    …
    buggy words, shame me

    Jing

    22 Mar 08 at 11:54 pm
45. Erica. Sooo glad to see you here. How’s everything in Hongkong~

    If I would go to Tibet for another trip, I would like to invite you if you were in China too. It’s such a wonderful place!

    亂童

    22 Mar 08 at 11:57 pm
46. Thanks for rich exchages, erica.

    I don’t believe the words from the tibetan girl.. sorry to say that.. But, it’s really obviously that girl was lying…. Almost all the tibetan grils living abroad are from india, they are from dalai’s group. You believe these people? I keep suspicion to these kind of source. All the tibetan girls who speak english are from india, not from mainland, suggust you to talk to tibetan students in colleges in China, but one point is that they are not good at english. Tibetan students who live a happy life in mainland seldom go abroad to study, since they are normally not outstanding as han students. It seems You have few experiences of being cheated by people’s words, I was fooled by one of nice girl who is really kind, and then I learn to not believe one time apparent words. Sometimes ,words much away from the reasonable truth should be highly suspicious.

    You could talk to any one from main land, students or other group who don’t extremely hate government. talk to them, most of people win’t believe that girl’s words, since it’s way way nonsense from the truth we feel in China.

    “How scared do you think I am to get a job after making these posts?”
    You really misunderstood China way much and our government… Tell a story: when undergraduate sophoremore year, one of my classmates used to straightly blame communist party and our government in red meeting hold by our school, and some of teachers and dean are present too. this is very embarrassing. But nothing happen.. It’s alright.

    In China, in most case, it’s free as in western country. Normally, You could blame government and party anywhere, but don’t too much, like some extremist. Sometimes, our blogs been blocked, but that’s fine, we keep blaming gov again and again on internet… no one will come to arrest you.

    If you understand that: what government don’t want is tormoil, so you get what’s going on… You could say something, but government won’t let it being tormoil.. that’s for the good of our whole country.

    Thanks.

    iceless

    23 Mar 08 at 12:02 pm
47. it’s true we went quite far from original topic…and finally a little bit back. I think one of the major reasons is that we can’t really about the situation itself, because of the lack of informations.
    Actually I’d really would like to meet u all once, also because I spent too much time on writing here … it’s not even my own blog

    It’s true, Hitler got originally democratically voted. This has also led to certain changes in the constitution of german democracy later. Well, there is never direct democracy, of course.
    But to me that is still not an argument against democracy in that sense, that a person like him could have got the power in a monarchy or any other system too, even though highly hypotetic.
    In fact he used achieved his power in parts through the democratic system. But finally what made him so powerfull were the “emergency case laws” (i don’t know better translation) to set off the power of the parliament. And within that constellation he became the dictator.
    So, I never thought about it, what it would have changed, if he would have tried to rule within the very young democratic system…. also highly hypothetic.
    But it’s true majority of the people might not mean the best choice, but still to me that is not a reason, not to give them an influence at all.

    For the experts stuff. In Germany very few politicians are experts themself regarding the topics they’re deciding about. They are consulting experts and thereby try to make judgements and decisions.
    So for example, the main person deciding about policies regarding internet law, doesn’t even know what the word “webbrowser” means … sad but true.

    Further it is also something about interests. Let them be experts, but politicians are never really representing common people. Because there interests might just simply differ and it becomes particularly worse if these politicians are too closed involved in the economics. e.g. U.S. - Oil Industry - Iraq war

    For the HK people I talked to … they were from all generations, well and under them a lot of knowledgable guestlectors, of which some are leading quite big organizations. Anyway, let’s say even more carefully - my impression is, that majority in HK don’t want mainland goverment. But at this doesn’t mean a lot as u all stated, it doesn’t matter at all.

    Well Hong Kong belongs to China, and that’s where it becomes to complicated to me, because I don’t feel that at all. Sometimes I even have the feeling, people here think they are not chinese at all …. quite sad, but also one of my random impressions, nth proved. And still really get it how HK can belong to china, but at the same time have its own goverment….anyway it’s drifting too far.

    Even though still really different opinions, I could learn a lot from ur views and informations.
    Well maybe we all will meet once in tibet, if the situation gets settled … and then we may discuss the -/+ of tourism in tibet

    _p

    23 Mar 08 at 1:01 pm
48. Hey _p, that’s really a brilliant idea, you know, about taking a tour together to somewhere Tibet or whatever.

    we’ve got fairly enough, and such talking makes us thinking stronger I think, and thanks sincerely again for sharing all these. I’m deeply impressed.

    If I’d give a final comment, I still wanna reply to you _p:)
    I’m not clear about why Elizabeth 2 is holding so many top monarch titles, if you know what I mean, all over the world, the islands etc. as well, when they all have their own governments (and Hongkong could be the case before 1997, so replying you said
    “And still really get it how HK can belong to china, but at the same time have its own goverment”)

    I’m sorry to hear that really so many complaints there about Chinese gov. and maybe take all the Chinese people as a whole, I mean, hold a negative impression against us
    That’s very discomforting.

    Alrigh, that’s fine. I’ll keep your words in mind. And really hope to exchange with all you guys now and then

    Jing

    23 Mar 08 at 3:48 pm
49. you know what’s interesting, just yesterday, I was thinking that I am so interested in meeting this guy, Mr. _p, haha,,really interested in what is this guy like~~~ since we together have gone through such a long way together ,

    there is ancient saying in China: no fight, no meet each other.

    Indeed, this piece of experience communicating with people of different culture has me learn lot lot.. The first lesson of Democracy is to listen to people who holding different opinions. I truly got a valuable life lesson.

    And please let’s end these topics instead of other easy ones. I am really tired, and right now I am facing tons of “due” next week and next next week and next next next…. The thing you said, which made Jing discomforting, is also making me discomfortable… Just let it be~~ Just don’t talk about this stuff any more~

    China has a long way to go, let’s pray for her~~~~ I love her

    haha, let you know, Jing is my undergraduate classmate, I think he is enjoying rambling other’s blogs these days. I posted this address on my blog, and that’s how attracted him here~~~

    Here are my blog and facebook account, you could reach me if interested, and please don’t publish this address everywhere
    http://blog.163.com/iceless_5517/
    http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=621761376

    I am more comfortable person than my words, and Welcome China

    iceless

    24 Mar 08 at 1:38 am
50. ***Reply to Iceless about why I am scared about talking about Tibet:

    Iceless, Im not scared about talking, mostly because I think the government will put surveillance on me. Yes, that would be the worst case scenario if I were to move to China and this was a problem. However, the main concern, which I guess I didnt completely express, is that American companies are not willing to hire people with political activity in such issues like Tibet, Hong Kong, and Taiwan. They want to have good guanxi with the Chinese government, and therefore do not want their employees getting into trouble by starting debates and protests on these types of issues. It is sad but true. There was a case study in the Harvard Business Review that was a very similar case. It was a story about a girl who was tied to a political protest on one of these issues such as Tibet, and then applied to be a top leader at a firm in Shanghai. The case asks the question: Even though this candidate is the best fit for the job, would you hire her based on her political activity in issues dealing with Tibet? (for example) Most professionals answering this question would probably tend to say NO, because she would be a huge liability for the company, coming in with all the extra baggage. Some day, I hope to be a top leader in an American firm abroad, hopefully in China. I was voicing that I was scared, because being involved in these issues sometimes goes against us, just because companies do not want to be tied to an employee that has such baggage tied to his or her name.

    ***Reply to those who think the Tibetan girl was lying:

    Thank you for your concerns. Please believe me that I have definitely been deceived in the past, however, I tend to give people the benefit of doubt, on an “innocent until proven guilty” basis. I do agree, however, that we should all be careful with what we believe. I also feel, though, that it is difficult to lie about such a compassionate story. However, how can we ever know who is lying or being truthful in this world? I tend to trust others. This is sometimes a curse, but in the longrun, I believe trustworthiness is a good quality. If I find out 10 years from now that all Tibetans living in America were actually liars, that every single individual in the protest that I saw that were so passionately chanting and marching all over Manhattan, from Chinatown to the Consulate, to the UN… If I someday come to realize that it was all a setup, a hoax, my feelings may change. But, until that day, I believe in human compassion. I believe that if someone confides in me, and I feel a pull towards their story, a true human connection, then I am on their side. If in the future, I am betrayed by this compassion, of course it hurts. But, in the meantime, I can at least feel as if I am representing something I believe in. For now, I stick to her words, because I felt true compassion for her and all of the other people in the parade, adorned in their traditional Tibetan garments, out in the cold, protesting for something that they also believed in.
    So, to just assume that she was lying is not any way that I want to live my life. Of course I am cautious, but she was not just feeding these lines to me. I asked her questions that I was interested in, and she was very kind to answer.

    ***In reply to visiting Tibet

    I have always wanted to visit Tibet, and I definitely think I will make it there soon, but not too soon! As a poor college kid, it is difficult to get the time and money to go on such excursions! But, I will definitely contact you, Lin, if I plan a trip. And you do the same! For sure, I would love to go!

    Thank you Iceless and Jing for your wonderful points of view. I respect your ideas, and I am glad to listen to your contributions and thoughts on Tibet.

    Feel free to check out my website about my time in China also! It’s not as cool and professional as all of yours, but it has some fun pictures!

    Best wishes!
    Erica

    Erica

    24 Mar 08 at 10:33 am
51. I just don’t talk about any more about that tibet girl..

    some stories in China to share:

    One of my best male friend’s girl friend was cheated by an old woman in front of Wuhan University’s gate. That old woman told a very impressive weepy story about her life and her family, which really won my best male friend’s girl friend’s compassion, and this girl gave out all her money in her pocket, like several hundred dollars… haha It’s really funny, after that day, she found out another girl was suffering the same old woman around our campus.

    I was suffering many times: two little cute girl like 13 years old, asking me some money to get contact to their family, since they told me they got lost, and need money to stay or go home, they are very hungry… You know what, no matter how cute how true it is,,, It’s really a trick in China, every where.. then I said to these two girls: alright, I would like to help you, let me bring you to police office, the uncle police will help you.. In china , police have respensiblity to help people and send them home. But these two girls went away without a word…

    I used to read a book about these cheating tricks by a journalist in China… It’s very interesting,,, Chinese people are really good deceiving, indeed, I lived in China for more than 20 years,heard of too many news and stories…so ,,,, really,
    I don’t want to say much about that tibet girl, but based on my experiences and understanding, it’s not convincing at all .. and actually I believe she has purpose..

    Believe people is gift, very good thing, which we should have. but still, I prefer to distinguish who deserves my trust before I trust.

    Thanks for sharing

    iceless

    24 Mar 08 at 11:42 am
52. It’s really cute in your pages…I like your pictures very much, actually I never reach to many places you have explored..like anhui,, China is so huge, you know, and some of summers, I was forced by my strict father to study for “future”…|o|

    Hope you could visit Wuhan in the future, my hometown, repute as Chicago in China, which was second biggest city in China 50 years ago, but not now…|o|
    Wuhan used to be the capital of “guomin” government, also lots of historic sites and universities here. As member of the “three big burner in China”, it’s really really hot in summer and which make people there very passionate, ardent and also hot-headed temper.. I like to mention that our local language in Wuhan is reputed as “the best dialect to quarrel”, since it’s dirty and aggressive to some degree~~:D
    The another point is food in Wuhan. but you need some one to guide.

    If anytime you want to visit wuhan, reach me first~~:P

    iceless

    24 Mar 08 at 12:11 pm
53. The kind of cheating u mentioned, iceless, at the end is not that difficult to distinguish … or at least to suspect. As at the end these person need to ask for money. The Tibetan girl didn’t.
    I don’t say the Tibetan girl must have said the truth, but actually I don’t see a reason why she should have lied. So I don’t really see a point of doubting her.

    Wuhan, hmm….actually I’ve been there once. Around 7 years ago, only for one day, when I did a trip by boat on the yangtsee river (at times it wasn’t flooded yet).
    I only remember I found it’s the only city in china where I saw girls with quite big asses. Sorry for this stupid memory, I probably should really go there once again to get a much richer perspective on wuhan.
    Thanks a lot for the invitation, I think I would like to come there not sure yet when.
    Actually I will travel end of july and August with a friend, our route is focussing on North East China, South korea and Taiwan, but I’m really thinking of maybe adding Garzê to our travelplan, even though it’s absolutely not on our way. So if anybody free and willing to go there at that time too, we may consider to meet there.

    Sorry I don’t have an facebook account, as I’m really worried about this data collecting stuff. Actually I have an account in the chinese facebook, but I rarely use it, just because I’m not able to naviate through the chinese menus without the help of chinese friends.
    And my blog is almost completely in german, but well u may use it to contact me, so just click my name of this comment, in case….

    _p

    25 Mar 08 at 12:44 am
54. Nice meeting you, _p.

    By the way, one of my best friends here in New York is a German. lol

    亂童

    25 Mar 08 at 1:31 pm
55. Thanks for the invite to Wuhan! I may have passed through at some time, since I too have traveled down the Yangtze River. But probably not! “Three Big Burners in China”, huh? What are the other two? Is Nanjing one? I know they call it something like a big oven, or something, right… I think I forgot the exact terminology. hahaha.

    Well, I have 74 new Chinese words to learn for tonight, so off I go! I have no more time to chat!

    Erica

    25 Mar 08 at 10:51 pm
56. http://linnil.info/blog/?p=225

    i don’t even want to argue anymore.

    I just hope the Olympics can be a successful one since so many Chinese put so much effort in it. The world is messed up.

    亂童

    26 Mar 08 at 6:05 am
57. Nanjing should be one of the three, another is Chongqing. Wuhan was the top before, but beared away by Chongqing last year.

    I’m sorry didn’t clear that, I am studying in New York city now, and might get back Wuhan this May, but not sure if I will spend other time in China…:)

    iceless

    26 Mar 08 at 5:05 pm
58. Hey!

    I’m going to a meeting for Students for a Free Tibet (SFT). You guys should come and voice your opinions and hear about their recent news on the protests.

    It’s tonight (April 3rd) at 7:00pm on the 7th floor of Kimmel, in the student lounge. Look for the table with SFT flyers and friendly faces!

    Just incase you don’t know where the Kimmel Center is, the address is:

    60 Washington Square South
    New York, NY 10012

    Hope to see you at the meeting!

    Sincerely,
    Erica

    Erica

    3 Apr 08 at 12:45 pm
59. see home greed green clean go key mail man juicy tree house

    speeddogglas

    18 Oct 08 at 1:46 am
60. mdyayayaya ….. * Many people think *…. the author thanks for the post!

    Den

    5 Nov 08 at 9:16 pm
61. Nice blog! Thank you

    Asaka

    7 Dec 08 at 12:53 pm
62. Самый интересный портал о новинках портативных устройствах, а также тесты сотовых устройств

    Алексей

    27 May 09 at 12:33 pm
63. This is an amazing entry. Thank you very much for the outstanding post provided! I was looking for this entry for a long time, but I wasn

    Chauncey Jinright

    22 Dec 09 at 1:35 pm
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65. And the question remains, what will come back from that?

    Bill Simmons

    29 May 10 at 9:39 am

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